Admissions just KILLED recruiting....

[Samurai Stang]

OK then, I will use "borderline qualifiers". Better?

No, because he qualified. You are trying to belittle that fact.

[ponyscott]

Changing from a SAT to a ACT shouldnt be a reason to change their minds...I did the same thing in HS because I was terrible at Math...my ACT was good enough then. There are some aholes on the admissions board trying to make a point ( and appears they can) and don't think Turner can help at this point.

[gforce021]

At first I was livid about the idea that we turned away some talent due to grades, but since then I have had a small change of heart after having two prospects spark interest because they "want to go to a school that does not change academic standards for athletes"

[Mexmustang]

Look, the issue is not about these two recruits, plain and simple it concerns the integrity of our administration, jeolosy, elitism, leadership, and most of all honesty. Can we trust Turner or not? He personally made a pledge to June, his assistants, the financial supporters that our admissions policy would be NCAA qualified--"we will be competitive in our admissions standards with other major schools". Turner decided that he would unilaterally alter that plegde--he got called for it. Turner is on the Knight Commission, he signed off on the NCAA standards, he was the co-chair--there is no ambiguity here. We either are going to play competitively or not.

Turner didn't like the attention June and football were receiving--little man's jeolosy, so he let the admissions committee know that he would not mind if some late or minimum qualifiers were turned down--two 18 year olds were affected, makes him what? a bully? and elitist? a racist? someone that doesn't standby his word? Personally, I believe all of the above!

The paper that he had produced on admissions was not correct on a number of points, the most obvious was that this was the statement that this summer was the first year we had late/minimum qualifiers, what a "crock"! what about last year? I remember 5 such admittances. In the past Turner would have been able to get away with misleading supporters/alumia with such a paper--no more.

There are a growing number of us that are standing by and financially prepared to hold Turner to his word or publically call him out for it. The problem Turner is facing is that no one has challenged him in a number of years--after 15 years, of reporting to a large, honorary, volunteer board he has had no one to challenge him, he is used to "papering over any problem" and running the uinversity as if it is his own--that day is over. If athletic supporters that pledged $14,000,000 to underwrite June"s contract, if other major donors to the athletic department (such as the Crum Center) can be mislead by Turner on our acceptance policy, how can anyone trust him with the larger sums involved with the "Unbridled Campaign"? Power corrupts and he needs to be called down for his lack of integrity and held accountable..

[Stallion]

--"we will be competitive in our admissions standards with other major schools"

Your whole thesis is built around this vague statement. Your entire argument falls because he never said SMU would accept the lowest common denominator or even what you think that statement says.

The fact is that SMU has admitted in the last 2 years just about as many academically marginal recruits as any team in Texas. Without question SMU is recruiting as many or more marginal recruits than any team in Texas. I believe 12 non-qualifiers in 2 years sets a new standard. We've even created an avenue for high school non-qualifiers to be admitted if they get their AA degree from JUCO-and we have several JUCOs on our team that fit that profile.

SMU's admission standards in practice allow us to compete with every team on our schedule. Now we might not admit the bottom 4% of US students that can't score a 700 on their SAT but the big news which all you June Jones suck-ups are missing and broadcasting around the country is that the recruiting pool has about tripled since the DP. Hell just in comparison to Phil Bennett's last two classes we are admitting 3 times more Category C recruits. A strong argument can be made that it is in fact not competitively wise to admit kids in the bottom 4% of US Students especially with the advent of APR because they can't handle the academics

There are plenty of schools that don't recruit all full qualifiers especially with the advent of the deemphasized SAT. We've cited 11 full qualifiers on this board alone in a month who were not admitted to their schools and not one of those schools were one of the traditional 20 or so schools which one would expect to have high academic standards for athletes.

We don't need the bottom 4% to be competitive PERIOD.

[Wuba]

Turner didn't like the attention June and football were receiving--little man's jeolosy, so he let the admissions committee know that he would not mind if some late or minimum qualifiers were turned down--two 18 year olds were affected, makes him what? a bully? and elitist? a racist? someone that doesn't standby his word? Personally, I believe all of the above!

Can you prove a word of this? Especially the first 13 words?

[Stallion]

Just for accuracy sake in a given year it might be slightly higher than 4% but not much-maybe 6-7%. 4% would be for a 670 SAT but even those guys could be full qualifiers with a 2.875 GPA. Here are the percentiles for the entering class 2007. The second line is the appropriate line to focus on because that is just Critical Reading and Math the NCAA Clearinghouse requires. Also remember a good percentage of those kids wouldn't qualify under NCAA rules anyway because of poor core GPA or core requirements so we are talking about a pretty small sliver of kids that are full qualifiers but say score below a 700 SAT.

99+ ≥1540 ≥2290
99 ≥1480 ≥2200
98 ≥1450 ≥2140
97 ≥1420 ≥2100
88 ≥1380 ≥1900
83 ≥1280 ≥1800
78 ≥1200 ≥1770
72 ≥1150 ≥1700
61 ≥1090 ≥1600
48 ≥1010 ≥1500
36 ≥950 ≥1400
15 ≥810 ≥1200
4 ≥670 ≥1010
1 ≥520 ≥790


Some of these posters would have you believe that all schools would admit an NCAA QUALIFIED recruit with a 3.2 GPA and an SAT in the lowest 1% of all US Test Takers. That ain't true. The NCAA deemphasized the SAT but that doesn't mean everybody now follows those standards. I don't know the exact average SAT for SMU entering freshman but it would appear that our students come from about the Top 80- 85% of all SAT Test Takers. SMU is bending over backwards now and we should be celebrating that we have competitive admission not threatening to burn the school down. Look up at a 1050 SAT percentile-that used to be the line Ken Pye originally drew and a 2.75 GPA that resulted in stricter evaluation. Not many exceptions were made and the process alone ran off most. Now we've gotten 92% in from a lower Category C (900 SAT or below/2.5 GPA or below) in 2 years. In the old days well over 50% of all US Test takers were considered suspect admission and scrutinized closely. That's when there should been a helluva lot more bitchin' and moaning

[PonyKai]

Turner didn't like the attention June and football were receiving--little man's jeolosy, so he let the admissions committee know that he would not mind if some late or minimum qualifiers were turned down--two 18 year olds were affected, makes him what? a bully? and elitist? a racist? someone that doesn't standby his word? Personally, I believe all of the above!

Wow...the accusations levied there are just...wow. You know what, June has no business being bigger than Turner, or the school itself. June was bigger than the University of Hawai'i, and he knew it, and it ended in a very ugly manner for their school. To allow a single employee to become bigger than the institution itself is a very wrong and short-sighted decision to make. Guess what...June also has an ego, a large one. June probably has toed the line on admissions multiple times in order to ensure that his entire vision of football success is brought to SMU. In this case, Turner called him on it and slapped him down. If that's what happened, then guess what...Turner was right to do it. "Little man's jealousy"...jeez.That doesn't make him any of the sad things you try and label him as, it makes him a good and effective steward of the University. June is not a demi-god...he is our football coach. SMU will be here many, many years after he is long gone. You might want to check your priorities there.

That doesn't mean that this situation was handled well by SMU--far from it, but this blew up instantly with the VAST majority of people not possessing the full, or even most of the correct facts. Having said that, one underlying issue is the dynamic of June and Turner. The trick is to keep Jones happy while not allowing him to run the entire University as he sees fit. That's Turner's job, it isn't "little man's jealousy". It's June's job to win 12-14 football games each year and train 85 young men to be good citizens.

[Stallion]

you forgot elitist and racist I think because he won't admit the bottom 6-7%. A little much considering scholarship will probably go to a minority and about 21 of 29 signess were minorities

[PonyKai]

Really, does anyone here stop to realize that we all make up about 2-3% of the entire alumni population, and we are what amounts to a special interest group. We are the athletic special interest group...we want all the money, marketing, effort, focus, and shepherding to go to our specific set of interests. Turner, as President, must keep Jones happy, prevent him from becoming bigger than the school (again), has to keep the militant faction of the faculty happy and quiet...it's a difficult balancing act between multiple, strong special interest groups. THIS DOES NOT MAKE HIM A RACIST.

[Pony!Poni!Pone'!]

To allow a single employee to become bigger than the institution itself is a very wrong and short-sighted decision to make. Guess what...Turner also has an ego, a large one. Turner probably has toed the line on admissions multiple times in order to ensure that his entire vision of faculty control tempers whatever progress is made by football at SMU. In this case, JJ called him on it and slapped him down. If that's what happened, then guess what...JJ was right to do it. "Little man's jealousy"...jeez.That doesn't make him any of the sad things you try and label him as, it makes him a good and effective steward of the University. Turner is not a demi-god...he is our university president. SMU will be here many, many years after he is long gone. You might want to check your priorities there.

FIFY..Everything you just said remains true when JJ's name is interchanged with Turner's name. Moreover, JJ's immediate superior is not Turner, it is SO. Trustees-President-AD-Coach. The president has no business calling any head coach on anything. If there is an issue, he will address it with the AD, who in turn should address it with the head coach. Also, it cannot be ignored that JJ and staff's pay does not come from the university's general fund.

[PonyKai]

The President of this University has every business calling the head coach on something. Jones might not report directly to Turner, but he is beholden to what his administrative superiors dictate, whether that is through Orsini or Turner. This is amplified by the fact that Jones is already, arguably, the most visible non-student at SMU, and is responsible for directing the most visible program on campus. The only argument you can make is that Turner directly calling a subordinate on anything is a misuse of his time, and, a stretch, possibly breeding an unhealthy professional environment, but to assert that Turner has no business to do so is laughable. Furthermore, it doesn't matter where the money came from to pay Jones' salary. He is an employee of Southern Methodist University; the source of the funds is irrelevant...Jones' didn't sign any sort of contract with the donors who are supplying his salary.

[Garret]

June was bigger than the University of Hawai'i, and he knew it, and it ended in a very ugly manner for their school. To allow a single employee to become bigger than the institution itself is a very wrong and short-sighted decision to make.

I wish SMU fans would stop trying to use what happened at Hawaii as being related at all to the situation at SMU. People claim that things that are happening at SMU now already happened at Hawaii when they have no idea that their statements completely misrepresent what happened at Hawaii.

I have a lot of examples about how JJ did NOT think that he was bigger than the University of Hawaii and how the SMU situation is completely different--let me list two:

1. UH's AD did *not* offer a contract to JJ until AFTER he had left for SMU in January. He actually let JJ coach the team to the Sugar Bowl on an expiring contract! After UH had gone 12-0, there were several events where the AD and JJ's agent had a chance to talk and the AD never mentioned a new contract for JJ, even when the agent asked him to talk about it. This is all in the public record and both sides have agreed on this point in interviews.

2. JJ offered to take a PAY CUT if the money that he gave up would be used to benefit the football program. Specifically, the money JJ would be giving up (whatever money that was subtracted from his $800k salary) would increase the recruiting budget and create a staff position for the football team. Some schools call that position a recruiting coordinator, some (like SMU) call it a Director of Football Operations...UH didn't get one until the AD was fired after JJ quit. JJ's offer to the AD was published in the Honolulu Advertiser a day or two after he accepted the job at SMU, this is verified public information.

UH's AD *turned down* JJ's offer to take a pay cut! Does that sound like someone that was bulldozing the University and getting whatever he wanted? Do people that are bigger than the institution get their offers to take pay cuts turned down?

[cutter]

I thought this was going to be a simple re-hashing of everything everyone's said before. But, I think Stallion has provided more good info/data on the issue that I don't think he's posted before, so I'm glad. I think the APR consideration bearing upon all of this is an important one, and something I think we bounced around before.

Anyway, Stlhockeyguy02's points are all well-taken, especially the realization of the importance of protecting the overall institution of SMU. JJ's priorities may well arrive at the point of being so at odds with this, that he walks. If so, all parties will survive and move on. SMU's football program will have been improved with good hope for continued success, and JJ will find the pastures he wants.

Ultimately, these are all good men involved in making difficult decisions (however colored by ego, politics, power, etc.) to achieve the goals they deem to be most important, as well as the trust that they have been charged with. Each one is doing a balancing act of multiple forces to that end. I am sure that it is not easy for any of them. It will be difficult to find much fault in those that choose to protect SMU in either specific arenas or its global mission.

anyway, my 0.02.

[PonyKai]

Recognizing that you are a figure that is more recognizable, more well known, and more front page material than the institute that employees you in no way necessarily means that one is trying to bulldoze their institute and achieve selfish goals. It is only fair to recognize, from a completely objective point of view, that in January of 2008, June Jones was bigger than the institute that employed him. The Governor intervened in order to retain his services, the AD was fired because of his departure (albeit, after a long string of very poor decisions), the University President held a press conference and apologized to the people of Hawai'i and the students of the University. The statement that June was larger than life isn't intended to make him out to be some sort of bad-guy or megalomaniac. It is just a recognition of fact.

Also, recognizing that someone has a large ego isn't intended to be some sort of slight. June is exceedingly good at what he does, and he knows it. He has supreme confidence in his abilities, his system, and his coaching staff. These are good qualities to have. June does also have an ego. Many successful people in their fields have them. It's just important to recognize it as part of the human dynamic that's in play.

June DID use his lofty position to get what he wanted, and it was a selfless act. He walked away in order to force the University to help the football program become more competitive, to provide the next head coach with the tools he was not given.

The point I'm attempting to make, is that from Turner's perspective, it is ultimately bad for SMU for Jones' to become "bigger" than the University. The concern here is that a small and passionate segment of the fans here at SMU appear to be ready to anoint Jones as Emperor of SMU, and give him cart blanche. As President of SMU, obviously, Turner can't subscribe to that and has to balance multiple interest groups within the University family in order to achieve harmony.